Thread: Stop the Islam4UK march

This march can legitimately be stopped.

It can be stopped

Copied from blogs (original entry) - post comments here.

You can't have democracy and freedom of speech for one group of people and not another. As diabolical as this man and his proposed ideas are, unfortunately he is working within the parameters of the law.

Even if, like his previous proposed demonstrations, it doesn't go ahead, he has won. Ashraf Choudhary has been interviewed by Sky news, had articles in all the major newspapers, and even facebook groups have people joining in thier tens of thousands. No doubt his own website has been looked at more in the last few weeks than ever before.

What we have to look at is not these idiots who want to march in a street, but the public reaction to them. The public has given this man what he wanted! What ideally should have happened is that people should have ignored him! He has never been able to band together 50 people to a demonstration let alone 500.

Can you imagine the egg on his face if IF he had turned up to his so called demo with a rag tag bunch of 50 like minded deluded extremists to ...................... wait for it.............................. absolutely nothing! not a passer by, not even a student journalist to capture the less than momentus occasion?

But no, thanks to sensationalist journalism, and public hysteria this man has now become a national talking point. One Muslim put it best when they said that 'Choudhary is not qualified to speak on matters of Islam. therefore should not be taken any notice of'. (paraprhasing)

However thanks to groups on facebook such as 'GER PARA REGT TO WOOTON BASSETT TO DO SOME DAMAGE' it just highlights the crass and idiotic way that people are prepared to deal with this.

Choudhary has not once said that he was going to cause damage, not once has he said he is inciting violence. He has stated on many occasions that he is holding a peaceful demonstration to remember the millions of civillian muslims who have died in Afghanistan. Now those among us will know that he is playing a very manipulative political game and riling people up by using a very poinant venue.

However the British public have played right into his hands in a way I doubt even he would have imagined!

If this man was a real threat to our country then the Security Service will already know about him and keep him under tabs, that is after all what they are there for.

If he isn't then he's just a mouthy guy with extremist views, not shared by the majority of British Muslims, who knows how to create a very big storm in a teacup!

At the end of the day if this March does go ahead, he's won. If it doesn't go ahead he can cry that his civil liberties have been breached, and unfortunately he'd be right.

What Sammi said.

Freedom of speech, and democracy are all encompassing which is I'm sure we agree is the way it should be. Don't like what's being said close your ears, and stop reading the media all the 'outrage' in the world is simply giving this man and his agenda more exposure.

My point is that the Govt can legally prevent the march, and I think they should. They have previously prevented less for less. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Nobody is free - we live bound by the rule of law. True freedom would mean anarchy. This is about leadership and statesmanship and governing the country properly.

"I am sorry son, you can't march here, this is no place to protest, people are grieving but you can march here and here and here."

Let them march on Westminster - leave Wootton Basset alone.

The Government tell you where you can and can't park, how fast you can drive, how much tax you have to pay, blah, blah, blah. We are not free by a long way.

Ps: The law is often about interpretation and under the The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 this protest is a violation of that law, so therefore illegal and legitimately preventable.

So therefore if the march is illegal should it be allowed to proceed or is that a breach of civil liberties? Or do we begin a debate about the hypocrisy of the law, or do we do use the law in this case to the nation's advantage.

Why is everybody protecting the freedom of a group they don't legally have to, when they fundamentally disagree with their actions?

To me that is insanity.

Originally Posted by wokkawifey

Nobody is free - we live bound by the rule of law. True freedom would mean anarchy.

...

The Government tell you where you can and can't park, how fast you can drive, how much tax you have to pay, blah, blah, blah. We are not free by a long way.

Indeed, people often rant on about liberty, but don't appreciate the difference between positive and negative freedoms and the role of the state.

I am just asking for the march not to happen at Wootton Bassett. To me that is not oppression but about respect for the dead.

We also have a democratic right to ask if this can be legitimately prevented then the Govt should do so.

Are you aware of what the planned march entails Sammi?

Beebs

I'm pretty sure that the local police have stated they will not give permission for the march to go ahead *will see if I can find the link tomorrow*

Wokka, while the people of WB display our respect for the military dead by turning out as they pass through WB if the repats were happening in any other town I'm sure the same would have happened there instead and of course that would be the automatic choice of place for someone who wants to direct the media spotlight on to his organisation as is the case here.

Yes its hateful and unpleasant reading of these 'plans' but I trust that it won't go a head and if it does those who oppose it react in a way which is lawful in the same way that this march must be conducted in a lawful manner.

Of course, this is why I am voicing my opinion in this lawful manner.

Originally Posted by blessed_baby_cakes

Are you aware of what the planned march entails Sammi?

Beebs

Absolutely. They 'propose' that 500 members of the islamic group Al-Muhajiroun will walk through the town of Wooton Bassett carrying symbolic coffins to mourn the thousands of dead civiliian Muslims, and to raise public awareness to the real (read their perceived) reasons that our soldiers are returning home in bodybags and the reality of war. Again, not a word for word statement as I can't get onto the website!

However! The people of Wooton Bassett have maintained that the reason they turn out for the soldiers return is out of respect with absolutely NO political agenda, in that case NOT turning out to watch a load of delusional extremists stomp up a street to prove some sort of point would be far more of a blow to them and their insane campaign.

Second point is that Choudhary is NOT and Imam, Islamic Scholar or a Cleric, therefore he has absolutely no authority to preach or teach on matters of Islam, many members of the Muslim community have come forward and basically branded the man a joke. Or at least somone who has no right to a public arena, it is the British public who have given this man a voice, and the media. Sensationalist headlines have once again got the backs up of the people who do not want to stop and think for themselves.

If people DID think for themselves and research this man they would realise, or at least come up ith the conclusion that he is a Puppet. The groups leader who is now exiled from the UK is probably executing this whole charade using Choudhary as his frontman.

There have been numerous proposed marches that have never gone ahead, seemingly because a) they have never been able to muster up substantial support according to one report, (i.e 500 people walking through WB was a massive exagerration), and b) why turn out if no one is going to take any notice?

I don't like what this group is about any more than you guys. I have read the website and think that they are a load of delusional nitwits. They are extreme in their veiws, but unfortunately as westerners there is nothing that we can do about that. To combat extremism in Islam it has to come from within. From Scholars, and clerics who oppose their particular regimes.

However, what my OP was about is that it's the tabloid media, and the mass hysterical reaction of the public to the tabliods that has now given this guy a voice and a platform. He is laughing up his sleeve now because everybody knows who he is, it doesn't even matter any more whether the march goes through or not. He has been given a voice by the media so whatever he says from here on in will be reported on, debated, and cause futher outrage. In the eyes of young impressionable Muslims that man is now someone who people take notice of!

He has essentially won either way!

hi guys, quite new to this as only just joined the site x been an army wife for 8 months and was a pad brat for 21 years! i read the letter the other day that was issued by choudhary about his reasons for the march and before i had even got past the first paragraph ( inviting us all to become devoute muslim followers and "believe") i paraphrase of course! my OH left the room in a blind fury at the nerve of the guy and both my mother and younger brother ( too young to remember being an army brat but old enough to have respect ) started spitting furious remarks and insults about this obviously disrespectful retard. . . . . .i agree that we have a general policy of freedom of speech but i also agree with a time and a place!!! WB is not the place and there will never be a good time for this debate. let them do it in westminster or better still, let them go HOME to a muslim country and parade there, maybe we could go and protest in their country about them invading our country, sucking our benefits dry and calling it asylum from a war torn environment x the argument works both ways, i'm not racist or cruel in any way as my friends will concur but if we're all going to protest when we have a small gripe in life lets be honest, who thinks i dont have a point!!!!!!!!!

As has been started on another thread, it appears that the Islam4UK march has been cancelled, according to 'facebook'. However untill responsible press report it I won't take too much notice.

I have to say though, that the hypocricy astounds me. Our men and women are literally dying in thier hundreds to establish a Democratic state in Afghanistan, and yet most people in the UK don't seem to agree with the idea of democracy.

Freedom of speech doesn't work ONLY for those people who have the same views and opinions as you! It works for everybody, with all veiws.

Either way, march or no march, you can pretty much guarantee that Ashraf Choudhary is punching the air in victory! His publicity seeking statement of a proposed (remember he has called and cancelled marches before ) march has caused so much 'outrage' and publicity (lets not forget, sold more papers) that he no longer needs to set foot in WB.

May I suggest that people in the UK stop reading sensationalist tabloid shite like 'The Sun', and 'The Daily Mail' and actually start thinking for themselves, like rational human beings? Instead of being fed shocking headlines which are purposely written to ensure maximum outrage and manupulation of public feeling?

Edited to add:

As for facebook, anyone who is a friend of mine on Facebook will contest that I don't join 'groups' and I have no 'fan pages'. It's just a platform for armchair activists who cannot be bothered to get off their arses and actually DO something about the subject that apparently enrages them so much!

If you are bothered about something, get off the social networking platform and actually draft a letter to your MP, petition your govermnet, run for politics or even get out there and protest yourselves. If it's not too much bother to exercise your freedom of speech that is!

And as you said the freedom of speech is extended to all, yourself included.

However that freedom is not purchased throught the death and sacrifice of those who are not kindred to this land, but by that happy band who will stand by Voltaire to the death.

Beebs

Originally Posted by blessed_baby_cakes

And as you said the freedom of speech is extended to all, yourself included.

However that freedom is not purchased throught the death and sacrifice of those who are not kindred to this land, but by that happy band who will stand by Voltaire to the death.

Beebs

Do you mean to say that anyone who is not willing to fight and die for this or any country to protect its democracy and civil liberties should not be allowed the same rights?

In any country you travel to or live in you are expected to abide by the laws of that land, should that only extend to prosecution from criminal activity? Or should people be allowed to enjoy the benefits of that land also.

Should there be one law for indigenous folk and another entirely for migrants?

To be honest I have no problems with this particular cause being highlighted. It's true the death toll for the Afghans is far greater than the number of British service personnel killed. This is barely reported by the British media. I don't think that people are even aware what is the Taliban attrition but I would imagine (and I don't know) that it is in the 1000s (maybe even 10s of 1000s) not hundreds.

My problem was the venue for the march, and I wanted to urge the British Govt to act and protect the interests of its citizens, which it could legally do so without oppressing the right to speak.

Originally Posted by wokkawifey

To be honest I have no problems with this particular cause being highlighted. It's true the death toll for the Afghans is far greater than the number of British service personnel killed. This is barely reported by the British media. I don't think that people are even aware what is the Taliban attrition but I would imagine (and I don't know) that it is in the 1000s (maybe even 10s of 1000s) not hundreds.

My problem was the venue for the march, and I wanted to urge the British Govt to act and protect the interests of its citizens, which it could legally do so without oppressing the right to speak.

Wokkawifey, that venue was chosen for nothing other than maximum publicity. In my eyes, thanks to our national press and the numptys who hang on it's every word, it's job done!

Not familiar with Voltaire?

What I BELIEVE is that the democratic right, in law, is the protection of the masses. Other wise the rights of the insurgent groups within our society who meet to conspire against the well being of our peoples and nations would go unchecked.

Threat on shores isn't new, and neither are the policies our Government holds in dealing with it.

Freedom of speech? There has always being a limit to the freedom any group has, more so of late under the racial incitement laws. Do I believe this group should have been allowed to march? No. Not because they are an offensive group with anti British teachings who would see you, me and every other Christian thrown to the lions but because it is within MY democratic right to say no. It is within MY democratic right to object. It is within MY democratic right to rally, write, sign and lobby.

As to Voltaire, his famous quote is one that every member of HM Forces abides by, and as a child of a military family, it's one I've been taught would proudly grace the head stone of any of my brothers, nieces or nephews that are still serving as protectors of MY rights, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."

And please don't preach on the formation of opinion, were the individual gains their knowledge might not be to your taste, or indeed your political view, however they have the same rights as you to read what they want when they want to form their own opinion based on the writings and the discussions that follow, well until the burning of books and literature is introduced.

As to the publicity received by the group concerned, do you think they're happy about the negative picture painted of them? They are fanatics, they have been shown to be fanatics and right minded members of their own brethren have stated they are to be pitied and ignored.

Enough of my time to this ranting, I have better battles to fight to ensure my children’s safety and well being.

Originally Posted by Sammi

May I suggest that people in the UK stop reading sensationalist tabloid shite like 'The Sun', and 'The Daily Mail' and actually start thinking for themselves, like rational human beings? Instead of being fed shocking headlines which are purposely written to ensure maximum outrage and manupulation of public feeling?

Who are you suggesting this to? RP is hardly a medium through which to reach out to the population.

Originally Posted by Sammi

As for facebook, anyone who is a friend of mine on Facebook will contest that I don't join 'groups' and I have no 'fan pages'. It's just a platform for armchair activists who cannot be bothered to get off their arses and actually DO something about the subject that apparently enrages them so much!

If you are bothered about something, get off the social networking platform and actually draft a letter to your MP, petition your govermnet, run for politics or even get out there and protest yourselves. If it's not too much bother to exercise your freedom of speech that is!

Congratulations to you - you have exercised your right to express your thoughts / requirements in the way that you choose. Note, however, joining Facebook pages is not mutually exclusive to actively campaigning, writing letters to elected persons and other 'off arse' activities.

Originally Posted by Sammi

As has been started on another thread, it appears that the Islam4UK march has been cancelled, according to 'facebook'. However untill responsible press report it I won't take too much notice.

I have to say though, that the hypocricy astounds me. Our men and women are literally dying in thier hundreds to establish a Democratic state in Afghanistan, and yet most people in the UK don't seem to agree with the idea of democracy.

Freedom of speech doesn't work ONLY for those people who have the same views and opinions as you! It works for everybody, with all veiws.

Either way, march or no march, you can pretty much guarantee that Ashraf Choudhary is punching the air in victory! His publicity seeking statement of a proposed (remember he has called and cancelled marches before ) march has caused so much 'outrage' and publicity (lets not forget, sold more papers) that he no longer needs to set foot in WB.

May I suggest that people in the UK stop reading sensationalist tabloid shite like 'The Sun', and 'The Daily Mail' and actually start thinking for themselves, like rational human beings? Instead of being fed shocking headlines which are purposely written to ensure maximum outrage and manupulation of public feeling?

Edited to add:

As for facebook, anyone who is a friend of mine on Facebook will contest that I don't join 'groups' and I have no 'fan pages'. It's just a platform for armchair activists who cannot be bothered to get off their arses and actually DO something about the subject that apparently enrages them so much!

If you are bothered about something, get off the social networking platform and actually draft a letter to your MP, petition your govermnet, run for politics or even get out there and protest yourselves. If it's not too much bother to exercise your freedom of speech that is!

Are you ranting? I hope you feel better after that.